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Silver Fox

  • Last seen on Feb 13 10:19 AM 2006. Member since February 14, 2006.
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  • on My Papa's Waltz by Theodore Roethke, on November 6, 2005
    Certainly Edgar Allen Poe was a great, popular poet, and his stuff was typically dark. However, he was expressing emotions that most people can relate to (love lost, greed, revenge, etc.). My gripe is with the slew of "personal" poetry that means something only to the poet. If the nuances of the poem have no meaning to another reader, then the art form is not effective.

    I can see where anyone might think this poem is about abuse, but unless we actually ask the author, we may never know. I prefer to see it in a sweeter light because I don't think the evidence is sufficient to support the abuse position.

  • on My Papa's Waltz by Theodore Roethke, on November 6, 2005
    Perhaps you don't like to actually read what I wrote, or maybe you just prefer to throw juvenile insults. I don't know. But, once again, I never said the negative poetry did not "have the potential to convey emotionally." I would argue further, but it is apparent you don't even read this, so ...

  • on My Papa's Waltz by Theodore Roethke, on November 5, 2005
    I never said that poetry was always wonderful and pretty. I said that poetry that touches the heart in a positive way is far more cherished than poetry that has a more negative feel. Of course, there are subtler negative emotions, like lament, that are also cherished because they evoke a more positive emotion.

    I have found over the years that it is useless to share my negative poetry (poetry dealing with negative emotions) because people quickly dismiss it. This is not just true of my poetry. People have their own problems, and typically don't want to hear the problems of others unless they are similar. Give your mother a poem about how it sucks that your girlfriend or wife left you for some other dude and she will feel a moment of sympathy. Give her a poem about how a streak of sunlight coming through the clouds is analogous to the love and support that mother's provide, and she (and many other mothers) will love it forever. Think "Footprints".

    As far as the meaning of this poem, I guess we will just have to leave it at disagreement. Looking online, I found that most critiques dismiss the abuse angle. According to many of the analyses, the abuse impression is the surface layer over a deeper meaning. I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

  • on My Papa's Waltz by Theodore Roethke, on November 4, 2005
    Excellent argument, SomnusLupus. That is a very thourough analysis. However, I still think "abuse" is too strong of a word to be used here. The last two lines basically refute the whole idea of abuse.

    Sure, the father was rough, but roughness does not constitute abuse. Any man who properly plays with his son will recognize that playing rough is part of the bonding. There are bruises, but they heal, and the bond is stronger.

    I think your wrist-grabbing analysis is off. First, the fact that the child is carried off to bed still clinging to his father's shirt (which is obviously a sign of adoration) indicates that the child is small. One cannot hold hands with a small child and dance around a room. Their grip just isn't strong enough. Instead, a father must take his son's wrists in his hands, completely engulfing the child's hand, in order to get a good grasp. Have you never spun a child around by his arms?

    I am not denying that there is a certain degree of reluctance on the child's part, but I think it is offset by other key phrases. For example, "But I hung on like death" contains the key word "but". In typical English usage, this word is used as a modifier to refute the previous clause. As such, the boy finds his father's breath repulsive, BUT he hangs on like death. If the author had said "and", then it would have continued the negative feel. Instead, it negates it and makes the act consensual.

    The problem I have with the abuse analysis is that it is easily counter-balanced by the obvious love that the father and son have for each other. Father's are rough with their boys. This is not abuse.

    I would disagree with your assessment that "poetry is not a pretty thing and is not a tool for documenting the pretty." Poetry serves this role very well. There are emotions other than anger, fear, and resentment. Poetry can capture any emotion, and it can do it by "documenting the pretty."

    Lastly, when I say that poetry that conveys negative emotions is not popular, I mean that it is not enjoyed by non-poets. Give someone a poem about suicide and watch them lose interest. Give someone a poem about abuse and they will soon forget it. Then give someone a poem about a boy adoring an imperfect father and you will have made an impression. This is why most popular movies have a happy ending. People want to feel good.